Carving.

snowslider - 23 October 2009 11:22 PM

But back to dynamics…
      What makes a turn more dynamic is the degree that the rider is leaned over throughout the turn.
A turn can be dynamic and not be a carved, it can be a skidded turn.
This is a very dynamic turn

This turn is dynamic but much less dynamic than the above picture.

The term angulation comes to mind. Dynamics refers to the angulation of the rider to the snow.
(angulation is often used to talk about the angle of the BOARD to the snow, but in a dynamic turn the RIDER is angulated.

again, a skidded turn can be dynamic, but in order to fully “lay out” a turn (eurocarve) is will likely be a carved turn where the board is LOCKED onto the edge and not slipping or skidding at all.

Freestyle riding has ignored the importance of turning. You can excel as a freestyle snowboarder (hence 720’s before carved turns) before you learn to carve. But knowing how to control the board on the snow’s surface, and not just through the air makes you a more competent and safe, full-rounded snowboarder. (all mountain rider, which should be the goal of every snowboarder)

I have heard from some that “you would be surprised how many top-name pros cant even make a decent carved turn”.

Hi snowslider, interesting to your hear another opinion, it’s great to hear a lot of experienced riders views about the subject.

I know it is matter of terminology but I would describe a dynamic turn as a turn where you use vertical motion in your legs and body to unweight and weight your board to help the turn as opposed to a static turn where you steering and edging to create the turn. Static turns are fine in low pressure situations i.e. green runs riding at a moderate speed but to really take on the steep runs you have to use more pressure control. The unweighting of a board at the beginning of a turn decreases the weight on the board making it easier to change edges and start the turn, whether that be for a sliding or carving turn. Weighting the board more and more through the turn gives you more pressure on your edges to hold on to the snow as you are gradually trying to go more and more against gravity as you finish off the turn. Leaning in super agressively without good pressure control, edging, alignment etc will just put more of your weight over the snow and less over the edge will make it more likely that your board slides out. It is different on heel edge because people tend to bend their backs and angulate too much (fold in laymans turn and inclining is leaning in) but on toe side for sure that guy in the pic at the top could carve loads harder if he leant over less and used his knees to get his board on edge but kept his back more upright.

I mean sure the pic is sweet and it is hella fun riding under the chair liftwith a great tan, a bit of sun block and some nice wrap around shades while touching your hands to the snow mid turn, but it’s not very effective. Haha, just joking around, snowboarding is many things to many people, and ride with whatever style you want, euro carves are fun but they just aren’t an effective way to carve or to demonstrate as an ideal for carving.

As for the comment about pro snowboarders and freestyle, no offence but I think that is kind of ridiculous and your not the first to say it that’s for sure. Sure there are plenty of rail riders, i.e. street riders who prob can’t carve that much but those guys aren’t really riding snow that much, it is not their niche in snowboarding, they mostly ride a small patch of snow to setup for a rail or wall and they have never had to learn that skill. The rest of the pros and the more well rounded ones to say they can’t carve is pretty bullshit, anyone who is hitting a 60ft plus kicker and taking off cleanly with good pop not sliding off the edge shooting tons of snow has to know a ton about edge control. If a rider can’t carve properly then they will lose too much speed setting up for the jump if it is a decent size and won’t be able to get good pop or make the landing. Yeah it is possible to do a 5 or 7 with that pre spin technique where you slide up the take off but it looks and feels horrible and I do not see many modern pros getting away with that.

As for pipe riders it is pretty clear that they must have a solid carve to control their edges on an icey wall at that speed and pressure. Also Aidy is a great rider and he may feel he want to improve some aspects of his carving but he is too humble to admit that he can already carve really good and is very well rounded, certainly not strictly a park rat. I’ve seen him hit jumps and he is certainly not slither sliding his way down to the take off and sliding 120 degrees of the rotation before he takes off.

I think it is a shame when freeriders want assume that freestylers a)can’t turn well and b) aren’t spending enough time to learn to carve properly but it is snowboarding do what you do. Saying all freestylers should practice turning more makes about as much sense as all freeriders go and ride street rails more. I mean it goes the other way too it sucks when some freestyler gets a massive ego cause they can do some rail trick and parade round the mountain but I suppose part of that is the arrogance of youth.

As for the feeling the weight on the inside of you boot that you described taht way better than I did and I think in general people don’t talk about the feel enough. Instead of saying lean back saying feel the pressure on the back of your boots is a much clearer way of saying it. For heeledge carve feel the tension in your lower back as you push your adomen forwards and across your shoulder blades as you roll your shoulders back. Hope this helps

Will

I’m glad this topic has got people interested, i know from experience when people talk about snowboarding they’re almost always talking about doing back 27 off their heels onto that downbox,  doing cab spins with nose, bagel this pretzel that…..etc…usually i’ve got a pint in hand and smile on face but as i say its nice that people can talk about the less glamourous side of shredding with this much energy and thought.  Thanks to everyone i will be massively grateful if when i get back on the snow i can really take my carving to the next level.  I’ve got lots to think about and I agree with Will, not nearly enough people talk about what they should be feeling to make it work better or if it is working, so cheers SS for bringing that side into it.  I certainly notice in the list that Will gave, some of the things that i’m doing wrong.
Just one question, when you say this,

For heeledge carve feel the tension in your lower back as you push your adomen forwards and across your shoulder blades as you roll your shoulders back.

do you mean arch your back? Perhaps you could just expand on this a wee bit, for example whats happening with your hips?, do you subscribe to the hips back for heel edge, hips forward for toe edge idea?

My approach with instruction is to understand the “why” and the “how”.
It just drives me crazy to read a trick tip or hear someone helping another rider when all that is said is “make the board go like this” and then a demonstration is shown.
They never tell them HOW to make the board to do that.

For example in basic instruction we use the falling leaf, or the pendulum as an exercise to teach people how to control the board…
But doing the pendulum down the hill isnt snowboarding (well, you’ll see what I mean) The instructor’s goal shouldnt be to have them perform the pendulum down the hill on each edge, but to use the pendulum as an exercise to teach them how to pressure the edge of the board. How to the use ankles to move the body and board to balance on that edge. How to drop to knees to the snow which lowers the center of mass and regain balance. How to distribute pressure differently along the length of the board to assist in steering. how to move your hips so that your weight is more over the nose or tail or centered.

Teaching snowboarding without teaching how to move the body, misses the BIG point of instruction.
I cant teach someone to snowboard if I dont tell them how and when and to what extent to move a body part….

Will,
I suppose that our understandings of how we use the term “Dynamic” is different. I think that by definition of the word you are absolutely correct. Yet I am using the term as AASI’s educational program has taught me. This is basically naming the turn a dynamic turn. But also to your defense, it is the body movements that make the turn more or less dynamic, and without those body movements the turn will not be as dynamic. Which I believe points to your use of the term.

I believe that being a well rounded rider is my goal. I want to be able to hang in the park, but hang on the mountain too.
I dont fault a rider for only wanting to ride powder any more than a rider who only wants to hit rails. “NO CORRECT WAY” was one of the better slogans to be marketed, and I believe that.
I just would like to see more well-rounded riders, but that’s selling my opinion. and nice turns doesnt sell snowboarding, but handrails and 540s do. I understand that. I strive to spin on and off a rail just as much as I strive to control my speed on steeps with narrow radius skidded turns a slow speed without side-slipping…. one of my ongoing feats I have yet to conquer.
To me there is a victory in both. But as I said, most riders dont value nice turns… and board control as I do.

I’ve heard from a pro and a few reps about the differences in how pros ride, I’ve not experienced that fist hand. But the pro comment was
“You’d be surprised how many top name pros couldnt perform a carved turn” - and I hope that I would be.

The response that a rider gets when they move in the right direction, is how they know they are doing it right.
Snowboarding is a sensation sport - I like to focus on the sensations / feelings of snowboarding when I share it with others.

I hope others join is with other ways to express some of these same thoughts on carving and board control.
This is where I really enjoy talking about riding. I’m just a geek about it at this level.

At Aidy

For heeledge carve feel the tension in your lower back as you push your adomen forwards and across your shoulder blades as you roll your shoulders back.

Maybe I did say this a bit quick, but try and tighten your lower back and bum muscles to create a strong base of support. Pushing your adomen forwards and rolling your shoulders back stops you from folding at the waist and keeps your weight over your heels not the snow. The tension across your shoulder blades I mean tighten your upper back and pull your shoulders back. Be confident and trust your carve and focus on putting all your weight on your heel edge and not just pushing down in the centre of your foot.

At snowslider

yeah “no correct way” is a great slogan and I like the direction Rome is going in. As for Dynamic, yeah it is just a name. Thats just what they call it in Canada and I guess it makes more sense to me cause I learnt it that way. As for the pro’s comment I’ve just noticed tons of freeriding instructors criticizing freestylers cause they don’t really understand it and I guess it does kind of bother me a bit and I guess I kind of agree with you cause snowboarding is most interesting to watch when everything is put together. Nicolas Muller or that new blood Jake Blauvelt ripping some switch pow line into a switch back five and then straight lining a chute that is the most exciting stuff to see.

I signed up for my level 3 last week so i’ll be giving this some serious attention in lets see…..under two weeks!!!!
One follow up question, I’ve only really recently quite realised the importance of visualisation.  Most people use this technique for freestyle, especially park riding.  But does anyone use it for freeriding, carving etc…  I’m gonna give this a good go before i get out to the slopes.  I will be getting a new board this year so sadly i can’t really carry out much of a scientific test on the hyposis that visualisation works but hey if i’m in good shape for my level 3 i really couldn’t give a…what the reason is.

Yeah for sure visualisation would be helpful. I would suggest to focus on whatever part of the turn you need to focus on. For me that is normally getting the timing right and all the folding at the waist issues we have been talking about here. I guess visualisation isn’t as fun as actually riding and takes a fair bit of dedication and concentration which is perhaps a big reason why I didn’t do it as much as I could when I was younger but I have no doubt now about how much it can help. Best of luck with the lvl 3 mate

Will your post brings to mind a thought i sometimes have and quickly have to bannish, namely.  If only i’d learnt to ride properly and learned to build my tricks one step at a time whilst using visualisation and other cheating!  Shit i’ve been doing this for 8 full seasons i’d be pretty clever by now and probably have 4 or 5 girlfriends and 13 or so friends!

Awesome thread guys, I realise it has been a few months since anyone posted here but just reading through it has been extremely interesting. I’m pretty sure I’ve learnt a few things just from being associated with such good instruction and advice. Will definitely be taking this out to the slopes with me in July!

Hey Brandy! It’s good to see this thread come up again. Let us know how you go in July. If you have any questions at all, please let us know.

Hey Rider, will do! You’ll all be on the edge of your seats, I guarantee it. Or at least an edge of some kind I’m sure!

Sorry to ressurect an old thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eZJMTGJ9hM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFzD2Br5Rag&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J5iP85eNUA

I think these 3 vids showed nice carving done (basically guys from the same crew). I have their instructional DVD (in Japanese, and I don’t understand anything haha), and during their heelside turns it seems that they are pointing the back knee inwards. I also have problems on heelside turns like Aidy. Once the terrain got steeper I tend to skid my turns instead of carving it.

Also is it just me or does it seem that their upper body is a bir counter rotated during toeside turns? Regardless they make carving look damn good haha

Hey skip, if you are having trouble with skidding out on your heal side turn this could be due to insufficient edging or pressure control.

Edging: angulation (the degree that the snowboard is off the snow) is more important than inclination (the degree that your body is tilted) in carving. If you lose some of the angulation in the beginning, middle or end of the carve, you will likely “wash out”. In order to properly angulate you need to keep yourself stacked over your heal edge, this can be achieved by thinking about keeping your shoulders/butt (weight) over your heal edge. However, don’t let your butt stick out to the inside of the turn “sitting on the toilet”. On heel side, it’s more difficult to get early edge angle. Your back knee should drop toward the carving edge quickly, and this move is assisted if your torso turns to the inside of the turn, and your butt stays over the carving edge. One way to get higher on edge is to flex your ankles more by trying to lift the toes on your front foot as you enter a turn, and then try to lift the toes on your back foot as you leave a turn. This move also helps you get forward on the board early in the turn, and shift to the rear of the board later in the turn.
Right after an edge change, you need to enter a carve with your weight toward the front of the board, and shift your weight back as you progress through the carve. This method is often called “feeding the dollar bill.” Do not start a carve in the middle or back seat. Use your legs to get your weight forward - don’t do it by breaking at the waist and bending over too far, or you will bury the nose and go over the handlebars. When carving fast turns on the steeps, you may not have time to do the weight shift. In this case, you don’t have to actually shift your weight - it is sufficient to merely think about shifting your weight to get a small bit of extra edge hold. You know you are doing the weight shift correctly if you get a lot of tail spring from the board without trying for it

For pressure control work on maximum flexion and maximum pressure and the center of the arc. Concentrate on “bending” the board at the centre of the turn by applying pressure. Also don’t maintain the same rigid static pressure during the turn. Instead, apply dynamic pressure using a few techniques: (a) Progressively shift your weight from forward to back throughout the turn (b) Progressively increase your angulation throughout the turn (c) Progressively twist your upper body towards the inside of the turn (d) To allow the board to seek its most natural arc, try unlocking the lean adjusters on your boots.

Side note: A snowboard with a smaller sidecut radius (and larger gap between sidecut edge and snow surface), can accommodate a greater amount of reverse camber, which means it can carve smaller radius turns. A snowboard with a larger sidecut radius (and smaller gap between sidecut edge and snow surface), can accommodate a lesser amount of reverse camber, which means it is best suited for carving larger radius turns.

Hope that makes sense (it did in my head)

Great advice NAP! I’ve been experimenting a bit and working on my carving. Will try some of your suggestions.

Hey thanks for the advice NAP. I have some questions. “However, don’t let your butt stick out to the inside of the turn “sitting on the toilet”. On heel side, it’s more difficult to get early edge angle. Your back knee should drop toward the carving edge quickly, and this move is assisted if your torso turns to the inside of the turn, and your butt stays over the carving edge.”

- what do you mean by the inside of the turn and the move is assisted if the torso turns to the inside of the turn?

- I think I’m doing the feeding the dollar bill on toeside carves but on heelside carves I feel like there’s too much weight on my front foot, making the back foot skid sometimes.

I was a bit unsure of that too ^^