Give Forum To Peter.
Damn I wish I’d made a copy of Johan’s blog piece. I can’t believe it’s been taken down!!! Nobody ‘forced’ him to remove it, but the fact that it was deemed necessary is pretty pathetic. Snowboarding’s sure not what it used to be.
It’s not pulled? it’s just been updated…
Are you kidding me? All the hoopla over saving Forum? GIVE it back to Peter? Really? Shit if there was this much excitement over the brand during the last few years the brand wouldn’t have been put to rest. You want to know why Burton cut the cord on Forum? Cause not too many people gave too many shits about it, that’s why. Forum is a brand that failed and by the grace of the snowboard Gods in Vermont got a second chance at life and then failed again.
Here’s what I remember about the original Forum, pre Burton. They had 8 dudes that could shred their faces off, they made a gay ass pink board with rainbows that all the homophobes stayed away from, but now that being queer is cool, people are collecting that deck, the product from back then sucked, they wouldn’t pay to license the Locking Freedom Groove from Rev, so they developed their own system called the Slider, which is what the system did when bindings were attached to it, the dudes that ran the companies were ego maniacs and drove Mercedes that they spent an extra $80G on Brabus tuning because a $100G Mercedes wasn’t cool enough, there was a $25G salt water fish tank the offices, the company was based in BroCal, the epi-center of snow shredding, in one of the team movies, the owner of the company makes it rain “dollah billz y’all” when Joni Malmi board slides a kink rail. “Hey bro’s check me out, I got so much scrilla I just chuck it out at my boys when they slide rails….yeeeeeee haw put me in the movie!” Yea pre-Burton was glorious.
So then the Gods of snowboarding from VT come along and save their ass. VT assembles the best rep force that the brands ever seen, develop bindings that are better than the unibody bullshit that they’re currently slinging, put quality into the boards, ship boots that fit comfortably, ship clothing on time, continue to support kick ass snowboarders, continue to put out baller ass team movies (F_CK IT was insane) and all the while the public and shops say “dude, why are you making me buy this shit, I’d rather put my money into Burton.” So after a while the Gods in VT look at the numbers and say, shit boys, you know we sell more Customs than we sell of our entire Forum brand? You know we sell more Missions than we sell of our Shaka bindings? You know we sell more Mini Moto’s than we do these Tweaker boots? Why the fuck are we wasting our time and money on this?
The sad part of this whole story is that the Gods from VT pulled the ripcord too quickly. What they should have done is waited until late January to make this decision. Then most of the product would have been sold at retail, reps would have been paid and there wouldn’t be this uproar over the failing brand. Now you got retailers going why the fuck do I want to sell a brand that’s dead? Reps saying, clinics…what clinics? And people that have jobs in the snowboard business saying #giveFORUMtoPETER when they should be saying #getPETERaFUCKINGjob.
Good luck Mr. Line, but I don’t think you need that. You ‘re smart, talented, witty, wealthy and the last thing you need is Forum. Seriously, you don’t. But you never know, they say the third time is a charm.
Oh, it’s back. It was pulled - but obviously sometime in the last hour, Johan’s put it back up with the disclaimer:
“Before reading…please note that this little rant is the opinion of the author, ME, and not of the brands I work for. This little typing spree of crap comes about after a 3 day road trip visiting shops in NY, NJ and PA. Every shop we went into would within 5 minutes of being in the shop bring up the subject of Forum being put to bed and how upset they were. That being said, enjoy the RANT that I wrote on the 6 hour flight home from Newark to Seattle sitting in a middle seat…. “
It’s not pulled? it’s just been updated…
Are you kidding me? All the hoopla over saving Forum? GIVE it back to Peter? Really? Shit if there was this much excitement over the brand during the last few years the brand wouldn’t have been put to rest. You want to know why Burton cut the cord on Forum? Cause not too many people gave too many shits about it, that’s why. Forum is a brand that failed and by the grace of the snowboard Gods in Vermont got a second chance at life and then failed again.
Here’s what I remember about the original Forum, pre Burton. They had 8 dudes that could shred their faces off, they made a gay ass pink board with rainbows that all the homophobes stayed away from, but now that being queer is cool, people are collecting that deck, the product from back then sucked, they wouldn’t pay to license the Locking Freedom Groove from Rev, so they developed their own system called the Slider, which is what the system did when bindings were attached to it, the dudes that ran the companies were ego maniacs and drove Mercedes that they spent an extra $80G on Brabus tuning because a $100G Mercedes wasn’t cool enough, there was a $25G salt water fish tank the offices, the company was based in BroCal, the epi-center of snow shredding, in one of the team movies, the owner of the company makes it rain “dollah billz y’all” when Joni Malmi board slides a kink rail. “Hey bro’s check me out, I got so much scrilla I just chuck it out at my boys when they slide rails….yeeeeeee haw put me in the movie!” Yea pre-Burton was glorious.
So then the Gods of snowboarding from VT come along and save their ass. VT assembles the best rep force that the brands ever seen, develop bindings that are better than the unibody bullshit that they’re currently slinging, put quality into the boards, ship boots that fit comfortably, ship clothing on time, continue to support kick ass snowboarders, continue to put out baller ass team movies (F_CK IT was insane) and all the while the public and shops say “dude, why are you making me buy this shit, I’d rather put my money into Burton.” So after a while the Gods in VT look at the numbers and say, shit boys, you know we sell more Customs than we sell of our entire Forum brand? You know we sell more Missions than we sell of our Shaka bindings? You know we sell more Mini Moto’s than we do these Tweaker boots? Why the fuck are we wasting our time and money on this?
The sad part of this whole story is that the Gods from VT pulled the ripcord too quickly. What they should have done is waited until late January to make this decision. Then most of the product would have been sold at retail, reps would have been paid and there wouldn’t be this uproar over the failing brand. Now you got retailers going why the fuck do I want to sell a brand that’s dead? Reps saying, clinics…what clinics? And people that have jobs in the snowboard business saying #giveFORUMtoPETER when they should be saying #getPETERaFUCKINGjob.
Good luck Mr. Line, but I don’t think you need that. You ‘re smart, talented, witty, wealthy and the last thing you need is Forum. Seriously, you don’t. But you never know, they say the third time is a charm.
hell yeah!!!!!
Johan’s right, in a literal sense. But while he makes some good points, what he ignores in his rant is that the Forum 8’s behavour was typical of the culture back then for many rider-owned brands, and that the business side of snowboarding has matured a lot since.
He also appears to take the word “give” somewhat literally. I just don’t see it that way. I reckon it’s more about making the statement that snowboarding should be ‘by snowboarders for snowboarders’ - not greedy corporations (which is what Burton appears to be becoming). Johan’s point about “the Gods from VT pull[ing] the ripcord too quickly” demonstrates how Burton are only thinking about themselves, and screwing over retailers.
You’re implying that because the culture was such back then, that made it okay to ignore how a good business runs? I’m not sure where you’re going with that, I don’t see how him acknowledging that changes anything. In reality, doesn’t the fact that they acted like that show their own greed for money and disregard for the company and community that made it all happen?
As for Burton being too greedy? Not this time. This is the best thing they’ve done in, possibly ever. Does the reeling in of AG’s product market sound like the acts of a greedy company? AG is getting massive now, there is no doubt AG could get large in other markets, instead Burton has decided to focus and dedicate AG to a snowboard only brand, like it once was. Not only this, but merging brands under one name to produce selective products means there is space opening up for other brands to step in - new or old.
Let’s be fair, forum gear has never been awesome quality, and that’s one of the reasons they have been dying. Would you hold onto a company that’s driving itself into the ground when shutting it down allows you to redirect resources and money into a more successful company? Jake didn’t close down Forum because he wants people to start buying Burton, he closed down Forum because people were buying Burton and not Forum.
Honestly I think most people are literal when they say ‘give Forum to Peter’. Why? Because a lot of people shouting it are young and don’t understand the reality behind owning, giving and taking over a company, it’s also an old brand, well establish in the industry and it’s sad to see it go, but more importantly, people just want something to hashtag, share on facebook and, well, it’s Burton. Everyone wants an excuse to hate Burton.
His comment about Burton pulling too early… well, He means they should have stayed quiet about it longer - If they had announced this in say, June 2013 and everyone knew they had known since now, do you not think people would also be in an uproar about not informing everyone sooner? You can say Burton’s choice has harder impacts on retailers, but on the flip side customers are now in the know and the impacts on them are less.
updated
You’re implying that because the culture was such back then, that made it okay to ignore how a good business runs?
That’s not what I said at all. I said that although that was the culture back then, the industry has matured since. Therefore people like Peter Line shouldn’t be judged by how they were then, but by how they are now.
As for Burton being too greedy? Not this time.
Burton are deliberately burying The Program brands to stifle potential competition. By choosing not to sell them, they’re depriving the consumer of choice. As Usual, they’re looking after their own interests first - which is fine, as long as they don’t hypocritically claim to be doing it ‘for the good of the industry’.
Would you hold onto a company that’s driving itself into the ground when shutting it down allows you to redirect resources and money into a more successful company?
Nope, I’d sell the brand for whatever I could get for it. The risk, of course, being that someone else might do a better job with it, and create competition - which is why Burton’s not selling The Program brands.
Everyone wants an excuse to hate Burton.
Perhaps Burton need to work harder to rectify that situation. Currently, they’re encouraging it.
His comment about Burton pulling too early… well, He means they should have stayed quiet about it longer - If they had announced this in say, June 2013 and everyone knew they had known since now, do you not think people would also be in an uproar about not informing everyone sooner? You can say Burton’s choice has harder impacts on retailers, but on the flip side customers are now in the know and the impacts on them are less.
The impact on the consumer is miniscule compared to that of the retailers! It’s blatantly obvious that Burton waited until everyone had committed to their 2013 orders before making the announcement - effectively screwing them over.
Even though Burton has said that all discontinued items will still be covered by warranty, consumers will be wary nevertheless - and that will be bad for retailers. Burton’s “Buy Local” campaign is a complete farce. Even thoughThe Program brands will no longer be under the Burton banner at the end of the 2013 NoHe season, it’s highly likely Burton will still force retailers to commit to their international trade agreements - meaning that it will be a lot harder for online stockists of The Program brands to clear all the excess stock that Burton basically tricked them into buying.
You’re implying that because the culture was such back then, that made it okay to ignore how a good business runs?
That’s not what I said at all. I said that although that was the culture back then, the industry has matured since. Therefore people like Peter Line shouldn’t be judged by how they were then, but by how they are now.how is peter line now?
As for Burton being too greedy? Not this time
Burton are deliberately burying The Program brands to stifle potential competition. By choosing not to sell them, they’re depriving the consumer of choice. As Usual, they’re looking after their own interests first - which is fine, as long as they don’t hypocritically claim to be doing it ‘for the good of the industry’.potential competition they already owned. if they didn’t buy the program brands when they did, what do you think would have happened? it was only a couple of years ago… how much has forum grown since then? not much
Would you hold onto a company that’s driving itself into the ground when shutting it down allows you to redirect resources and money into a more successful company?
Nope, I’d sell the brand for whatever I could get for it. The risk, of course, being that someone else might do a better job with it, and create competition - which is why Burton’s not selling The Program brands.and what if the most you could get for it was nothing? im sure if someone comes to the table with an offer they will look at it… but until then why give away a brand they PAID for?
That’s not what I said at all. I said that although that was the culture back then, the industry has matured since. Therefore people like Peter Line shouldn’t be judged by how they were then, but by how they are now.
Very true, she should not be judged now based on back then - But I don’t think the blogger was judging the Peter Line of today, he was merely judging the way Forum acted in history as a reason for its failures and as a perspective of Forum as a whole throughout the industry.
Burton are deliberately burying The Program brands to stifle potential competition. By choosing not to sell them, they’re depriving the consumer of choice. As Usual, they’re looking after their own interests first - which is fine, as long as they don’t hypocritically claim to be doing it ‘for the good of the industry’.
By removing them they are also allowing new brands to take their place in future and create more competition. Either way you look at it, there’s a good and bad.
Would you hold onto a company that’s driving itself into the ground when shutting it down allows you to redirect resources and money into a more successful company?
Nope, I’d sell the brand for whatever I could get for it. The risk, of course, being that someone else might do a better job with it, and create competition - which is why Burton’s not selling The Program brands.
So your more annoyed at the fact Burton don’t want to Sell Forum (which they bought because it was about to die, and pumped money into to resurrect) than you are they about them shutting it down? Sure, that seems fair… yeah, let’s put it this way, you bought an old Dodge Charger because someone blew up the engine being a dumbarse, you restored it almost to the point of working again, but for some reason (no money, no parts) you can’t finish it and drive it. I demand you sell it to someone who can use it! Fair?
Anyway can you really blame them? In reality here, isn’t this a good business model for a company that wants to continue to be successful?
Everyone wants an excuse to hate Burton.
Perhaps Burton need to work harder to rectify that situation. Currently, they’re encouraging it.
In your eyes. In mine, and many others, this is a step forward.
His comment about Burton pulling too early… well, He means they should have stayed quiet about it longer - If they had announced this in say, June 2013 and everyone knew they had known since now, do you not think people would also be in an uproar about not informing everyone sooner? You can say Burton’s choice has harder impacts on retailers, but on the flip side customers are now in the know and the impacts on them are less.
The impact on the consumer is miniscule compared to that of the retailers! It’s blatantly obvious that Burton waited until everyone had committed to their 2013 orders before making the announcement - effectively screwing them over.
Even though Burton has said that all discontinued items will still be covered by warranty, consumers will be wary nevertheless - and that will be bad for retailers. Burton’s “Buy Local” campaign is a complete farce. Even thoughThe Program brands will no longer be under the Burton banner at the end of the 2013 NoHe season, it’s highly likely Burton will still force retailers to commit to their international trade agreements - meaning that it will be a lot harder for online stockists of The Program brands to clear all the excess stock that Burton basically tricked them into buying.
Your opinion, I can’t argue that. I understand but believe there was never going to be a good time to make this call, no matter when it happened people were always going to cry foul.
I hate that people think company’s in this industry should be all about the riders, that they should sacrifice anything it takes to make them happy. It’s a fantasy. Everyone forgets that every company within the snow industry is still a business, created to make profit. “hurr durr this company wants you to enjoy it and just have fun”. No. That’s a nice little idea they like to portray - It is very hard to kick off a business and be successful without any plans to profit, and it’s also very hard to keep a company running and expanding with such ideas. We would not have the technology we have in our equipment today if company’s were not competing for dominance in the market. Your favorite brands are just as guilty of competing for financial gain as the ones you hate.
Bottom line is that Burton owns those brands and can do what they like, they saved Forum from death once, and I don’t think anyone can call the reasons behind that greedy. It back fired on them, despite best intentions and now Forum has been put to rest once and for all. It’s their right to do as they please, an no ones right to be angry at them for it.
Less also take note that Burton has not confirmed these brands are dead for ever, they have clearly pointed out these brand names are being held. Most likely to return in future (at least Forum).
how is peter line now?
A lot more responsible than he was back then, but wasn’t really my point.
potential competition they already owned. if they didn’t buy the program brands when they did, what do you think would have happened? it was only a couple of years ago… how much has forum grown since then? not much
It’s only “potential competition” when it’s up for sale.
It was eight years ago, and who knows what another owner could have done with The Program? Unfortunately, it appears we’ll never know.
and what if the most you could get for it was nothing? im sure if someone comes to the table with an offer they will look at it… but until then why give away a brand they PAID for?
If “the most you could get for it was nothing”, then it’s worth nothing - so any time and money you’ve invested in it has been wasted. Burton are currently implying The Program brands are ‘worthless’ - when in actual fact, they’re worth more to Burton killed off than sold.
By removing them they are also allowing new brands to take their place in future and create more competition.
Perhaps, but it takes a long time to establish a brand - so already established brands with a solid following have a major edge.
So your more annoyed at the fact Burton don’t want to Sell Forum than you are they about them shutting it down?
Yep, but not so much Forum - more Foursquare and Special Blend. There’s a lot more good board companies than there are good outerwear companies.
... let’s put it this way, you bought an old Dodge Charger because someone blew up the engine being a dumbarse, you restored it almost to the point of working again, but for some reason (no money, no parts) you can’t finish it and drive it. I demand you sell it to someone who can use it! Fair?
If I had no intention whatsoever of using it the future, then sure, why not sell it? It’s a FAR better option than sitting there idle, just taking up space. The better job I did restoring it, the more money I’d get for it.
Anyway can you really blame them? In reality here, isn’t this a good business model for a company that wants to continue to be successful?
Sure is. All the top corporate overlords use the same tactics.
I hate that people think company’s in this industry should be all about the riders, that they should sacrifice anything it takes to make them happy. . .
You’re missing the point. It’s the hypocrisy people are against - when companies like Burton falsely claim to be “all about the riders” when they’re really all about the money.
. . . they saved Forum from death once, and I don’t think anyone can call the reasons behind that greedy.
Well, they did need to secure the rights to the ICS Channel system.
The “greedy’ part came at the end, not the beginning.
Less also take note that Burton has not confirmed these brands are dead for ever, they have clearly pointed out these brand names are being held. Most likely to return in future (at least Forum).
Given the public response, Forum’s now a possibility - however Foursquare and Special Blend will join Jeenyus, the forgotten piece of The Program puzzle (that Burton killed almost instantly upon acquisition).
That whole “being held, most likely to return in future” spiel is usually corporate overlord lingo for “all that’s left now is the autopsy and coroner’s report”.
On another note, what would you do with Forum if you were Burton?
I haven’t really put much thought into this, but given the strong show of public support, I’d be scrambling to turn this PR train wreck into a win. As Forum boards are basically rebranded Burton boards these days, I’d keep them going as a limited edition urban/park line - giving the name a new twist to incorporate a ‘forum’ of like-minded riders who combine their talents to design innovative new boards. It could maybe even be brought completely into the Burton stable as “The Forum” or even “The Burton Forum” (if the Burton link was found to be beneficial). I’d use Peetard as the figurehead to capitalise on his popularity and notoriety as the last surviving member of the Forum 8. I’d ditch the boots and bindings - just focussing on boards, strongly branded casual wear, and making killer videos.
Keep the main 3 forum boards that people love and buy. I’m sure sales could tell you this… but I’m guessing the Scallywag, the Manual and the Destroyer. All pretty soft park / urban / jib boards. Make it a select brand and take most of the money out of it (especially the other 12 board designs people rarely buy).
Take money out of their bindings and boots if they have any (they don’t need it).
Then cash in on the few boards that make them money and trash the rest of the trainwreck that is forum.
Chuck the brand name on your Burton jib / urban movie as a colab and keep the name out there without putting money into it.
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Then I’d stop making children’s room decorations and start putting effort into keeping my brand above the curve when it comes to snowboarding..,
So your more annoyed at the fact Burton don’t want to Sell Forum than you are they about them shutting it down?
Yep, but not so much Forum - more Foursquare and Special Blend. There’s a lot more good board companies than there are good outerwear companies.
I know you disagree when I say this, as will a lot of people, but Foursquare and Special Blend gear was nothing special. Their gear is not known for its durability or performance. I’m not saying the brands are crap, just average - I own some foursquare pants this season (which have been less than stellar), and do plan on getting some SB pants still for next season unless I can afford to buy from Home School.
... let’s put it this way, you bought an old Dodge Charger because someone blew up the engine being a dumbarse, you restored it almost to the point of working again, but for some reason (no money, no parts) you can’t finish it and drive it. I demand you sell it to someone who can use it! Fair?
If I had no intention whatsoever of using it the future, then sure, why not sell it? It’s a FAR better option than sitting there idle, just taking up space. The better job I did restoring it, the more money I’d get for it.
Missing my point - Yes you may be better off selling it, but my point is that someone else who doesn’t own the car is telling you, or trying to force you to sell it when they have no right to. Fair? Not really.
I hate that people think company’s in this industry should be all about the riders, that they should sacrifice anything it takes to make them happy. . .
You’re missing the point. It’s the hypocrisy people are against - when companies like Burton falsely claim to be “all about the riders” when they’re really all about the money.
See:
Everyone forgets that every company within the snow industry is still a business, created to make profit. “hurr durr this company wants you to enjoy it and just have fun”. No. That’s a nice little idea they like to portray.
. . . they saved Forum from death once, and I don’t think anyone can call the reasons behind that greedy.
Well, they did need to secure the rights to the ICS Channel system.
The “greedy’ part came at the end, not the beginning.
I feel again, missing the point - They bought Forum without any plan for what you may consider “greedy”. Forum should have died already, so whatever happens now matters not, as without Burton in the first place, they wouldn’t have lasted this long.
I understand the feelings over how it was shut down and when, but those are personal and obviously not reflective of everyone else within the industry or community.
Less also take note that Burton has not confirmed these brands are dead for ever, they have clearly pointed out these brand names are being held. Most likely to return in future (at least Forum).
Given the public response, Forum’s now a possibility - however Foursquare and Special Blend will join Jeenyus, the forgotten piece of The Program puzzle (that Burton killed almost instantly upon acquisition).
That whole “being held, most likely to return in future” spiel is usually corporate overlord lingo for “all that’s left now is the autopsy and coroner’s report”.
Agreed that we will probably never see the return of SB and FS, however the life span and role of those brands in the industry has been meaningless when compared to Forum, and I find it hard to imagine that with all the other brands available, brands starting to produce new gear (e.g. Bataleon coming out with outerwear) that there will ever be a noticeable lack of competition or variety.
I do believe Forum will see a come back, some time, place, or form. It may not be a complete brand, maybe just a one off board in a few years - and yes, while yes, I would have mixed feelings over this being out of “greed” or something more it may also be considered a nice gesture in respect for a brand that was around in the earlier days helping shape the snowboarding we know today.
I wouldn’t call this a PR train wreck. When people aren’t happy with things they are going to voice more opinions, and do it louder than the people who do like it or don’t care. As far as I’ve seen, the people who care the most have been relatively new to the sport. I actually don’t personally know anyone who would have ever bought a Forum product, or cares that these brands are disappearing.
As for owning Forum? I’d look to improve the construction and credibility of the brands gear.
It’s must definitely a PR train wreck. As if there weren’t enough reasons to hate on Burton already, they have just handed people a massive reason on a silver platter!
In almost 20 years of riding, I’m yet to find a snowboard pant that beats the Foursquare ‘Q Pant’ for versatility in all conditions at that price point. I have 5 or 6 pairs of them - and probably at least 10 Foursquare jackets. All still work just fine.
There’s a reason the word “statement” goes with “fashion” a lot more than “board”, “binding” or any other piece of equipment. People don’t wear band t-shirts simply because they like the music - they do so because they want others to identify them in a certain manner. In a similar ‘fashion’, that’s why I’m not a fan of wearing Burton outerwear. I personally choose not to be identified alongside busloads of gapers (who’ve only ever really heard of the one brand, so that’s what they buy) and skiers. Foursquare and Special Blend offered fashionable outerwear at a similar price point and quality to Burton, without the “me too” factor.
The main point in all of this is that Burton are refusing to sell these brands for no other reason than it helps them preserve their virtual monopoly over that end of the market. Just as Burton, as a business, have every right to follow that route, fans of The Program have every right to hate on them for it.